Author Topic: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match  (Read 32691 times)

Offline Old Ironsights

  • FSW Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,911
  • Malum Prohibitum, Malum Habenae Regum est
    • מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2012, 09:56:35 AM »
Another problem with the "pay it off" comment is that if you are in default of your student loans, many states now will pull your professional licenses.  So, many lawyers, doctors, CPA's, etc, don't have the ability to "pay it off,"  they no longer have the ability to feed themselves. 

The government is also considering pulling passports and national licensing for defaulted students.  A good example would be for a doctor to lose his DEA license and therefore, would be unable to prescribe medicine.   How do you "pay it off" then?
That is by design.  Sallie Mae makes its profit from the non-disclosed penalties & fees that come with "default".  Unlike every other bank/lending institution that LOSES money when borrowers default, Sallie Mae PROFITS from it...

So why NOT do everything possible to insure that more people default?

It's a win win for them.
Anarchy ungodly? See 1 Sam. 8

The desire to control the life of others is more evil than the desire to simply kill them.
The desire to control the life of others by proxy, through “voting”, is just as evil… but more cowardly.

מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין

Offline jhamilton1769

  • Casual Observer
  • **
  • Posts: 28
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2012, 11:08:57 AM »
MFN, guess I will have to respectfully agree to disagree on the issue of fraud in the student loan industry, especially if my comment is to long to read. I did put a few hours into it focusing on brevity and readability so if you change your mind about reading and wish to further discus we can of course continue that debate.

Fraud , interest and penalty issues aside, I think the other big issue I have is that of double standards. I just don't see how there can be a reasonable expectation in a society that rule of law will prevail if different segments are held to different standards. How can one group be afforded a protection such as bankruptcy and another denied?
   Congress gave the reason that the student loan market was unique and without denying bankruptcy protections unscrupulous individuals could walk away from their debt without even attempting to pay it back since an education can't be repossessed. This would give the lender no recourse and in turn fewer people could afford an education. Of course the removal of bankruptcy protections is pretty recent (2001 for Sallie Mae loans) and people got educations prior so... what do you think regarding this?

For clarities sake I would like to say that I do indeed feel responsible for paying back what I borrowed. It is the interest and fees I take issue with.
 

Offline manfromnevada

  • FSW Founding Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,080
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2012, 05:20:22 PM »
jhamilton:
If it takes 2,000+ words to weave a story about fraud, then I'm sorry, I don't buy it. But then, who cares?
George Washington always warned about debt since you lose control of your life when you owe money to someone else.

It's not the lender's problem nor their responsibility what happens to you (or any of the other posters here). Your bad luck, or health problems, or lack of job in no way modifies the contract that you or the others signed. You agreed to the terms, and now you'd like to change them?

In my opinion, FRAUD would be something like this (very concise):
Section 2.1.10.12 of the contract reads: The APR of the loan will be adjusted every 12 months to the then current rate given to new applicants.

IF that was in the contract and they continue to charge you then higher rate then THAT IS FRAUD, but it's not in there, right?
They are abiding by the written contract, right? Or is there a specific clause that you still feel they are defrauding you on?

And it IS that simple, not complex as people keep saying here. Who didn't have the money? You. Who agreed to the terms? You. Who spent the money? You. Who can pay it off immediately if there are better terms available in the private market? You.

Yeah, you're in a bad situation. But it's a situation that you created. Trying to rationalize it by screaming "fraud" just doesn't work.

Mac

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
<Edmund Burke>

Offline Old Ironsights

  • FSW Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,911
  • Malum Prohibitum, Malum Habenae Regum est
    • מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2012, 05:30:07 PM »
Willful.  Ignorance.

La la la... I'm not listening...

What part of NONDISCLOSURE OF TERMS are you missing/ignoring?
Anarchy ungodly? See 1 Sam. 8

The desire to control the life of others is more evil than the desire to simply kill them.
The desire to control the life of others by proxy, through “voting”, is just as evil… but more cowardly.

מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין

Offline Don Wills

  • FSW Founding Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 847
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2012, 08:05:47 PM »
OK, I'll jump in here.  Shouldn't waste my time, but I will.

The whole student loan debacle is a mess because government got involved.  I had student loans back when I went to school.  Took me ten years to pay it off.  Fixed interest rate.  Money from a private foundation that focused on kids from small towns in the midwest going to reasonably priced schools (the University of Illinois in Champaign/Urbana in my case).  I knew what I was getting in for and I decided it was worth it.

Enter the big bad wolf (Washington, DC).  Here little girl, I have some goodies for you.  Guess what - you end up cooked in an oven!

I have no sympathy whatsoever for all the whining here splitting hairs about disclosure, etc.  If the loan really is fraudulent, go get a lawyer and sue 'em.  (I bet the lawyer won't take it because it's not really fraudulent, but that's just a hunch.)

That said, DON'T TALK ABOUT HERE OR ANYWHERE ELSE WHATEVER YOU PLAN TO DO.  Just do it. And quit whining.

Offline Old Ironsights

  • FSW Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,911
  • Malum Prohibitum, Malum Habenae Regum est
    • מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2012, 07:05:49 AM »
There are Lawyers working on it.  But the reason most of us don't have our very own personal Lawyer is (A) if we could afford that, we'd already have our loans paid off and (B) as you say, the Government is involved.

Since the Government is involved, and the Government makes the rules, they get to decide what is "fraud" and what is "murder" and what is an "illegal taking" and what is "assault", etc.

The lending system supporting our higher education system is structurally predatory.  In the absence of fundamental, free-market consumer protections like bankruptcy, statutes of limitations, refinancing rights, and others), and in the presence of unprecedented collection powers that would make “mobsters envious” (Elizabeth Warren’s words), we have a student loan system where the big lenders make significantly more money on defaulted loans than healthy loans.  What is worse:  The guarantors (the entities that are supposed to police the lenders) make, on average, 60% of their revenues from penalties and fees attached to defaulted loans. What is almost unbelievable:  Even the Department of Education (According to the President’s Budget), gets back $1.22 for every dollar they pay out in default claims for Federal Family Education Loan Program (FFELP) loans.  Even subtracting generous collection and other costs from this profit still leave them clearly in the black.  Imagine if it turned out that JP Morgan Chase, Fannie Mae, and even The Housing Department were making more money on defaulted sub-prime home mortgages than those which remained in good stead.  This is the reality for student loans.

These financial motivations explain a wide and deep array of systemic defects, conflicts, and corruptions in the system that involve the lenders, schools, and most importantly, the Department of Education.  One example, Sallie Mae and others have been found to have defaulted student loans en masse- without even attempting to contact the borrowers!  Another example:  all colleges routinely mislead students prior to taking out loans about their true default rates- they instead doggedly promote their reasonable sounding “cohort” default rates, and the Department of Education never does anything to correct this false impression  (The true default rate across all schools is roughly 1 in 3, and has been for years, whereas the cohort default rate typically lies between 4%-8%).  Similarly, students usually aren’t made aware that all the consumer protections mentioned above- and more- don’t exist for student loans.

A few common-sense questions are compelled here:  Would you want to take a loan from someone who wanted you to fail in your endeavor?  Doesn’t this put the lending system in a position of bad faith?  Is this not a defining characteristic of a predatory lending system?   Adam Smith, Milton Friedman, and every other western economist would answer yes on all counts.

But you know the deal.  If THEY - "The Government" does it, it ain't a crime.  If anybody else acted this way they'd be Enron'd.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 07:52:10 AM by Old Ironsights »
Anarchy ungodly? See 1 Sam. 8

The desire to control the life of others is more evil than the desire to simply kill them.
The desire to control the life of others by proxy, through “voting”, is just as evil… but more cowardly.

מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין

Offline manfromnevada

  • FSW Founding Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,080
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2012, 08:51:19 AM »
Still waiting to hear exactly which section of the contract was fraudulent. Or exactly what action of the lender was fraudulent as compared to the contract.
Sorry, but "bad intentions" is not fraud.
Sounds more like whining than fraud. Sounds like the underwater home owners who are whining about the evil banksters that "tricked" them into borrowing money.
But I could be wrong. Just my opinion.

Mac
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
<Edmund Burke>

Offline Old Ironsights

  • FSW Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,911
  • Malum Prohibitum, Malum Habenae Regum est
    • מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2012, 09:01:47 AM »
So, what I'm hearing is that you don't believer in Free Market protections and prefer to have the Government twist things to their advantage... correct?

Maybe you don't like the idea of "equal protections" under the law. 

Removal of Standard Consumer Protections AFTER the student signed the loan contract illegally violates well-settled Contract Law, and, of course, violates Equal Protection, insofar as Student Loans are the *only* types of loans NOT granted these 'Standard Consumer Protections' (truth in lending; bankruptcy proceedings; statutes of limits; the right to refinance; adherence to usury laws; and, Fair Debt & Collection practices, etc.).

OTOH, maybe you are just self righteously sitting back and saying "HA! I got screwed and so should you!"... even thou you didn't come out of school into an economic collapse.

But I could be wrong.  Just my opinion.
Anarchy ungodly? See 1 Sam. 8

The desire to control the life of others is more evil than the desire to simply kill them.
The desire to control the life of others by proxy, through “voting”, is just as evil… but more cowardly.

מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין

Offline jhamilton1769

  • Casual Observer
  • **
  • Posts: 28
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2012, 09:11:38 AM »
All right enough tiptoeing around the subject out of respect for my elders, the kiddy gloves are coming off.

If you buy something and are denied the right to take possession of your purchase is the seller legally required to refund you for your purchase?

Some people buy homes to live in, which is good. Many more prior to the housing market collapse bought homes with the intent to use them as an investment tool. The general consensus at the time was that homes would only go up in price. This is with good reason since absent government meddling, large scale deadly conflict or pestilence the human tendency is to grow the population. If you bought a home to live in nothing has changed, you still have possession of a home and despite the short term effects of government meddling your purchase will appreciate in real value relative to its absolute fiat money value. This is a sure thing up until the point that cost effective interplanetary travel and colonization techniques are developed. It is as safe as gold or more so since gold will maintain its value in the long run short of inventing a cost effective way to artificially create it or to extract the small quantities of gold present in all sea water.

vs.

Many more people recently than in past generations have been taking loans to pay for educations. These debtors have been told by their parents, educators, politicians and media since their formative age that an education will prepare them for a lifetime of financial success. In fact, getting into a good university is for a majority of modern Americans the primary goal of everything they do in their pre-adult lives. This is with good reason since education in general, not to be confused with a formal education, benefits a  society on a macro level. With most areas of study today, people do not buy an education with the intent of selling it for a higher price to someone else at a later date. They purchase an education and accompanying degree  under our current system with the intent of obtaining a job of which many employers require a degree for consideration. In a true free market system one could sell their education with a proper ROI or that educations cost would have to decrease due to market demands. Thanks to the current de jure monopoly on education ROI is often negative despite societies lies to the contrary.

I suppose the two examples regarding debtor obligations are related in that government overreach has screwed them both up but they are a poor comparison. The former group took possession of a tangible good that had value at the time that they received it and coincidentally still has value. The latter received an intangible good with no current value absent the increased ability to pay off the debt. Care to guess which group has been receiving loan forgiveness at the expense of the other group in the form of higher taxes in the future?

Offline jhamilton1769

  • Casual Observer
  • **
  • Posts: 28
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2012, 09:14:06 AM »
                                                                                                                                  Finding absolution
   
   It is the social security ponzi fraud, not the housing market, that actually has more in common with the student loan market and is explicitly linked. The corrupt ringleaders in politics and crony capitalist mega corps running the show took the lions share of the intergenerational plunder from SS and give a pittance of what they took back to the previous generation of victims via a social security check which is paid for with current tax receipts from their children. This theft is compounded by the time value of money and the pernicious affect of intentional government induced inflation. Not content with only stealing the wealth that already existed, the same institutionalized thieves who have been allowed to have to much power via an overreaching government a la the new deal have decided to steal wealth that has not even been created yet! There truly is no end to the level of their greed. They did this by inflating the cost of an education beyond what a normal free market would entail and to add insult to injury it was done using plundered monies from previous generations.
   It was not my generation that was in a position to put an end to the new deal corruption prior to the removal of student loan protections or the laws that gave children without any assets access to cash to purchase degrees that despite the promises would have a negative ROI. It was not my generation that voted on the bills that allowed the government to use SS monies to provide loans to everyone with a pulse. It is my generation and those under me who are on the hook to have both our future and past earnings plundered via SS payments and student debt payments for the duration of our productive lives. You will have to then excuse me for thinking that I should perhaps not play ball, that starving the beast is the way to put an end to the corruption and ever expanding state.
   Why should younger Americans have to eat the loss both ways? I am not without empathy for the baby boomer generation though. What your parents did to you was atrocious, what you do to your children is doubly evil. Since a great portion of the wealth stolen to pay for an overpriced education which I could potentially benefit from in the future is currently unrecoverable I would be more than willing to eat part of the expense but not both ways. Either allow me to opt out of SS without raising other taxes or causing inflation via quantitative easing or give up on trying to collect what is owed on student debt. You can't have their cake and eat it to, was a phrase first used about a decade after the passage of the new deal, I suggest reading the entire wikipedia entry for that phrase. Perhaps the phrase was a warning from the greatest generation after they had just won world war two and handed their spoiled children the baby boomers the greatest nation the world has ever seen. Perhaps the baby boomer generation should ask themselves what sort of world they are leaving to their children instead of tearing them down at every turn and whining about how their adult children aren't leaving the nest when they can't. It is the John Galt types that you are sure to lose and society will never know the true cost of what could have been.

                                                                                                                                  There is hope

   The only person of or close to retirement age that I have ever known to make the statement that even though she has been robbed, the money is gone and there is no claim to robbing my generation is Mamaliberty. She did so in a different thread that I read on the FSW forums. This is one big reason why I immediately gained so much respect for your movement and why I have been so forthright. I wonder, what would happen if instead of spouting abstract principles like "Fiscal Responsibility" "Limited Government"  and "Free Markets" the baby boomer generation actually stepped up to the plate en mass owned up to their responsibilities  for allowing the New Deal crimes to go for so long and started walking the talk. Perhaps then the younger generation could learn something besides selfishness from their elders whom they truly need the wisdom of if we are going to make lemonade out of these lemons. Ditch the hypocrisy and I see no reason why the pro liberty movement be it FSW FSP Libertarian T Party or any of the archist groups shouldn't be taking all of the youth votes from the big government Obama types. We are of course the group paying the steepest price because of socialist policies.

Offline manfromnevada

  • FSW Founding Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,080
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2012, 09:56:58 AM »
OI said: "OTOH, maybe you are just self righteously sitting back and saying "HA! I got screwed and so should you!"... even thou you didn't come out of school into an economic collapse.
But I could be wrong.  Just my opinion."

Yes, you are wrong.

JH, Sounds like you are truly angry at the whole situation. Your teachers, your parents, politicians, and media. I guess they all "defrauded" you by suggesting that an education was a worthwhile endeavor?

Obviously you are using the work "fraud" in a much broader context than I am. I take it there was not any actual "fraud" in the contract that you signed and agreed to? Appears to me that it's the larger society's "social contract" that you are calling "fraud".

Last year my wife and I lost half of our retirement savings after a Ponzi scheme we were involved in collapsed. We had no idea. I share your sentiments with SS being a Ponzi scheme. Of course it is! It was from day one. It WILL collapse. I think most of us here on the Forum acknowledge that and have discussed it at length. Yet the very people who denounce it as a Ponzi scheme are still collecting from it (with a whole host of rationalizations as to why it's OK to do so). Money for seniors, ranch and farm subsidies, property tax discounts if you graze cattle or grow hay, home mortgage interest deduction, oil and gas depletion allowances, food stamps, Section 8 housing, payments to Solyndra for greenie energy, Earned Income Credit: the list goes on and on for special classes of people and their activities. Each gets a page out of the 20,000 pages of IRS tax code.

Yeah, there's a lot to complain about these days.
Question: why is it that if I walk into a restaurant or barber shop I get my meal and haircut cheaper than you? Because I'm old?
That is the most blatant age discrimination ever, but yet, I've never heard ONE complaint or news story about it.
But then again just today I saw some kind of discounts on Amazon for students. Huh? They can buy the same book as me for less because they go to school. See what I mean?

Life is unfair. You just have to make the best of the hand you are dealt and the era into which you are born.

Mac
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
<Edmund Burke>

Offline Foundit

  • FSW Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 555
  • Emmigrated To And Now Living In Wyoming
    • Flooring Help
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2012, 11:09:17 AM »
OI said: "OTOH, maybe you are just self righteously sitting back and saying "HA! I got screwed and so should you!"... even thou you didn't come out of school into an economic collapse.
But I could be wrong.  Just my opinion."

Yes, you are wrong.

JH, Sounds like you are truly angry at the whole situation. Your teachers, your parents, politicians, and media. I guess they all "defrauded" you by suggesting that an education was a worthwhile endeavor?

Obviously you are using the work "fraud" in a much broader context than I am. I take it there was not any actual "fraud" in the contract that you signed and agreed to? Appears to me that it's the larger society's "social contract" that you are calling "fraud".

Last year my wife and I lost half of our retirement savings after a Ponzi scheme we were involved in collapsed. We had no idea. I share your sentiments with SS being a Ponzi scheme. Of course it is! It was from day one. It WILL collapse. I think most of us here on the Forum acknowledge that and have discussed it at length. Yet the very people who denounce it as a Ponzi scheme are still collecting from it (with a whole host of rationalizations as to why it's OK to do so). Money for seniors, ranch and farm subsidies, property tax discounts if you graze cattle or grow hay, home mortgage interest deduction, oil and gas depletion allowances, food stamps, Section 8 housing, payments to Solyndra for greenie energy, Earned Income Credit: the list goes on and on for special classes of people and their activities. Each gets a page out of the 20,000 pages of IRS tax code.

Yeah, there's a lot to complain about these days.
Question: why is it that if I walk into a restaurant or barber shop I get my meal and haircut cheaper than you? Because I'm old?
That is the most blatant age discrimination ever, but yet, I've never heard ONE complaint or news story about it.
But then again just today I saw some kind of discounts on Amazon for students. Huh? They can buy the same book as me for less because they go to school. See what I mean?

Life is unfair. You just have to make the best of the hand you are dealt and the era into which you are born.

Mac

You are correct Mac.  Life is sometimes unfair.  The Founding Father knew that too.  That is why they never intended for people to become permanent debt slaves to bankers and corporations.  That is why they put bankruptcy into the Constitution. 
"If I cared for my life, I would have lost it long ago, trying to lose it, I find I cannot throw it away." -Bloody Bill Anderson

Offline Cyclonesteve

  • FSW Associate
  • **
  • Posts: 2,027
    • Short Lane
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2012, 11:21:40 AM »
JH, Sounds like you are truly angry at the whole situation. Your teachers, your parents, politicians, and media. I guess they all "defrauded" you by suggesting that an education was a worthwhile endeavor?

Obviously you are using the work "fraud" in a much broader context than I am. I take it there was not any actual "fraud" in the contract that you signed and agreed to? Appears to me that it's the larger society's "social contract" that you are calling "fraud".

Mac, you always have interesting posts.  :)

Perhaps "fraud" is not the right word. As OI pointed out, some people signed up for loans in good faith with the intention of paying them back but knowing that if something went wrong (they got sick, the economy colapsed) they had the option of declairing bankrupcy and clearing the debt. Now the government has taken possession of that debt (85% is what I've heard) and removed it from bankrupcy protection. They fundamentaly changed the agreement without the consent of the other party.

I'm not sure what to call that. It's not "theft" or "violence" or "extortion" but it is wrong. What would you call changing an agreement without the agreement of the other party?

(This, of course, is just talking about the loans and legal agreements and has nothing to do with the schools, govt & society's mantra about the importance of an education at any cost.)
Give them your teeth, not your belly.

Offline Foundit

  • FSW Member, In Wyoming
  • ****
  • Posts: 555
  • Emmigrated To And Now Living In Wyoming
    • Flooring Help
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2012, 11:43:32 AM »
JH, Sounds like you are truly angry at the whole situation. Your teachers, your parents, politicians, and media. I guess they all "defrauded" you by suggesting that an education was a worthwhile endeavor?

Obviously you are using the work "fraud" in a much broader context than I am. I take it there was not any actual "fraud" in the contract that you signed and agreed to? Appears to me that it's the larger society's "social contract" that you are calling "fraud".

Mac, you always have interesting posts.  :)

Perhaps "fraud" is not the right word. As OI pointed out, some people signed up for loans in good faith with the intention of paying them back but knowing that if something went wrong (they got sick, the economy colapsed) they had the option of declairing bankrupcy and clearing the debt. Now the government has taken possession of that debt (85% is what I've heard) and removed it from bankrupcy protection. They fundamentaly changed the agreement without the consent of the other party.

I'm not sure what to call that. It's not "theft" or "violence" or "extortion" but it is wrong. What would you call changing an agreement without the agreement of the other party?

(This, of course, is just talking about the loans and legal agreements and has nothing to do with the schools, govt & society's mantra about the importance of an education at any cost.)

The government not ONLY removed BK as an option: But even after the governmnet pays off a defaulted loan, they even allow the original creditors of defaulted loans the ability to still recoup fees and penalties that actually double or even triple the cost of original loan.  Thus creating an incentive for bankers to encourage default rather than mitigate defaults;  thus they enslave unwitting student borrowers to permanent debt slavery. 

Also, any student loan amounts that are "forgiven" still trigger IRS income liability, most of which are also not dischargeable in bankruptcy.

Non-disclosure and material omissions in a contract constitute fraud.  I think the above qualifies as such and therefore are not fraud.  How they got there was also corrupt and unconstitutional.
"If I cared for my life, I would have lost it long ago, trying to lose it, I find I cannot throw it away." -Bloody Bill Anderson

Offline Cyclonesteve

  • FSW Associate
  • **
  • Posts: 2,027
    • Short Lane
Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2012, 12:24:46 PM »
Non-disclosure and material omissions in a contract constitute fraud.  I think the above qualifies as such and therefore are not fraud.  How they got there was also corrupt and unconstitutional.

Was there a typo here?  :)
Give them your teeth, not your belly.