Author Topic: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match  (Read 32389 times)

Offline Cyclonesteve

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2012, 10:08:37 PM »
Exactly!  The bankers that issue student loans bought protectionist legislation through lobbying.   That legislation did two things:

1. It shifted the lenders' liability and risk to the taxpayers.
2. It removed constitutionally granted bankruptcy protections for citizens.

That led to:

1. The banks eliminating most underwriting criteria and they began making risky loans they would not have done before.
2. The cost of college tuition skyrocketed, due to the added demand for the services made possible for easy college loans.  Many of those students simply dropped out anyways.

Both the banks AND the education establishment bombard students from the earliest ages with the propaganda that they the only way they can succeed in life is by going to college.

And when you combine that brainwashing with no financial education at any level, students don't have a chance.

It's a racket.  And yes, I pay my student loans.  That doesn't make it any less of a racket. 

You are right, but got it backwards.

1. Students & their parrents buy the propaganda of the need for college to be a success.
2. Students borrow money but the propaganda is a lie so they default on the loans.
3. Now we go to your points about bankers, risk & lobbying & the removal of bankrupcy protections.
4. Then underwriting criteria changes & skyrocketed tuition.

I don't know if this helps in deciding if/how he should pay his big student loan debts.  :(
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Offline manfromnevada

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2012, 09:11:52 AM »
Still waiting to hear how the author was "defrauded".
Was there something in the student loan agreement you agreed to that was fraudulent?

If I take out a fixed interest loan at 6% for 30 years and next year the same bank is offering loans at 2%, does that mean I was defrauded? I can pay it off AT ANY TIME.

I think this should take a paragraph, not two pages.

Mac
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
<Edmund Burke>

Offline Foundit

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2012, 09:18:54 AM »
Still waiting to hear how the author was "defrauded".
Was there something in the student loan agreement you agreed to that was fraudulent?

If I take out a fixed interest loan at 6% for 30 years and next year the same bank is offering loans at 2%, does that mean I was defrauded? I can pay it off AT ANY TIME.

I think this should take a paragraph, not two pages.

Mac


Maybe you should reread this entire thread. 
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Offline Cyclonesteve

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2012, 09:31:22 AM »
Of course there is one possible way out of this problem.

1. Get lines of credit/credit cards with a total limit upto your student loan balance.
2. Get cash advances & pay off the student loan.
3. Make a good faith effort to make payments on your new debt.
4. Declair bankrupcy and get the debt wiped off.
5. Pay cash for everything after bankrupcy.

I'm no lawyer, maybe the suggestions above would be wrong?
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Offline Old Ironsights

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2012, 10:04:19 AM »
Still waiting to hear how the author was "defrauded".
Was there something in the student loan agreement you agreed to that was fraudulent?

If I take out a fixed interest loan at 6% for 30 years and next year the same bank is offering loans at 2%, does that mean I was defrauded? I can pay it off AT ANY TIME. ...

You can't pay off what you don't have the income to pay off.  And as for your example, you can refi your 6% loan. You are PROHIBITED from refi-ing a Student loan.

That is never explained in any of the Student Loan documentation.
Anarchy ungodly? See 1 Sam. 8

The desire to control the life of others is more evil than the desire to simply kill them.
The desire to control the life of others by proxy, through “voting”, is just as evil… but more cowardly.

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Offline Cyclonesteve

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2012, 10:14:38 AM »
Still waiting to hear how the author was "defrauded".
Was there something in the student loan agreement you agreed to that was fraudulent?

If I take out a fixed interest loan at 6% for 30 years and next year the same bank is offering loans at 2%, does that mean I was defrauded? I can pay it off AT ANY TIME. ...

You can't pay off what you don't have the income to pay off.  And as for your example, you can refi your 6% loan. You are PROHIBITED from refi-ing a Student loan.

That is never explained in any of the Student Loan documentation.

By "refinancing" I assume you mean replacing an old student loan with a new student loan.
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Offline Old Ironsights

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2012, 10:56:38 AM »
Still waiting to hear how the author was "defrauded".
Was there something in the student loan agreement you agreed to that was fraudulent?

If I take out a fixed interest loan at 6% for 30 years and next year the same bank is offering loans at 2%, does that mean I was defrauded? I can pay it off AT ANY TIME. ...

You can't pay off what you don't have the income to pay off.  And as for your example, you can refi your 6% loan. You are PROHIBITED from refi-ing a Student loan.

That is never explained in any of the Student Loan documentation.

By "refinancing" I assume you mean replacing an old student loan with a new student loan.
I mean Refinancing.  Just like one does with a Mortgage or Car loan or anything else.  When rates go down, you refinance.

Interest is paid for two reasons:  To cover loss in case of default and to make profit.

The Student Loan system suffers no loss.  Ever.  They PROFIT from defaults and have created a byzantine system that makes default more likely.

Since they hold ZERO risk in these loans, my loans - capitalizing at 8.25% - are pure profit to Sallie Mae and the US Dept of Edu.

So why can't I refi to a lower rate when those lower rates are offered?  See above.  It's pure Government sponsored Usury.
Anarchy ungodly? See 1 Sam. 8

The desire to control the life of others is more evil than the desire to simply kill them.
The desire to control the life of others by proxy, through “voting”, is just as evil… but more cowardly.

מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין

Offline Cyclonesteve

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2012, 01:30:04 PM »
I mean Refinancing.  Just like one does with a Mortgage or Car loan or anything else.  When rates go down, you refinance.

Interest is paid for two reasons:  To cover loss in case of default and to make profit.

The Student Loan system suffers no loss.  Ever.  They PROFIT from defaults and have created a byzantine system that makes default more likely.

Since they hold ZERO risk in these loans, my loans - capitalizing at 8.25% - are pure profit to Sallie Mae and the US Dept of Edu.

So why can't I refi to a lower rate when those lower rates are offered?  See above.  It's pure Government sponsored Usury.

You can't because the government/lender has no competition. (And because competition would cut government & banking revenue.) The banks used to charge you a penalty if you paid off or refinanced your home mortgage. A lender that does that now would not make many loans.
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Offline manfromnevada

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2012, 08:45:26 AM »
"Refi" can be with a different lender. Get a new loan (from your bank, your parents, your friends) under different terms to pay off the old. Simple.

But this is not about refi'ing. It's about "fraud".
Still waiting to hear about the "fraud".

My point his is not to crucify anybody. My point is that one should make up excuses, and then believe them, for having made a bad choice. Again, it's like the homeowners who took out mortgages they couldn't afford and then later blaming the "evil banks" and everyone else for their bad decision. If I buy stock, and it later goes down, it's not "fraud", it's just a bad decision. We all make lots of bad decisions, but let's not blame others.

Mac
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Offline Old Ironsights

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2012, 09:03:13 AM »
The "fraud" comes in the nondisclosure of the facts relating to banking practices.

The "fraud" comes in the RICO level of collusion between a for-profit private organization and sweetheart deals that give their financial instruments special powers that NO other financial instruments have.

The "fraud" comes in the FACT that it is easier to reduce or eliminate the "penalties and fees" for TAX EVASION than it is to remove the "penalties and fees" for simply being too underemployed to stay out of "default" on your student loan... >:(

It's not the LOAN we are PO'd about, it's the NON DISCLOSURE of the nature and level of the "penalties and fees".
Anarchy ungodly? See 1 Sam. 8

The desire to control the life of others is more evil than the desire to simply kill them.
The desire to control the life of others by proxy, through “voting”, is just as evil… but more cowardly.

מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין

Offline jhamilton1769

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2012, 12:40:36 PM »
Perhaps a hypothetical analogy with real similarities between the student loan market as it currently exists and my personal experiences would be more concise regarding why I feel there was fraud. As for being able to explain why I feel defrauded in a paragraph vs. a couple pages I will have to respectfully disagree with you.
   After graduating spring of 2007 I moved to New York and spent the first two years or so either looking for work or working around the clock to pay the bills while my fiancée finished graduate school as she could not work in her undergraduate field without a masters degree. I used forbearance as much as possible and by the time the bills became due the economy was in free fall. I was underemployed, hated my employer and knew that staying with them long term was not an option. My health was failing from the stress of my situation. Since we were living paycheck to paycheck without even making any student loan payments on my debt leaving was not an option. I made the emotional and perhaps irrational decision of ceasing payment to all bills save basic necessities. This allowed me to, for the first time since graduating college, start saving. I used this savings to purchase some Canadian currency and silver maple leaf bullion which has gone up substantially in value. This represents my plan B emergency escape fund and to this day is our only savings.  By the time my fiancée was done with graduate school, perhaps prior, I was thoroughly burnt out and a physical mess. I quit my job despite the economy and just waited. I figured she would kick me to the curb and I would use my plan B fund to escape NY, I did not want to be a drag on her and was proud for helping her finish graduate school. She did not do this and since she was the first person in my life including my biological parents who was always there for me I have not left NYC yet. I do think it is time to make a move though and just taking whatever rare under the table work I can find here in NYC while working out of the home to keep costs low isn't cutting it. I have spent the bulk of my time studying economic texts, reading about the student loan debacle, the housing crisis, credit default swaps and other such scams being used to force the economic hands of those of us unconnected to the graft. I could indeed write hundreds of pages on the issue "why I feel defrauded" as the tangled web the deceivers have wrought is indeed that complex. I think you will find the following story more entertaining than something resembling a text book though, so here it goes. For comparison purposes I ask the reader to interchange the story topic "you got a house for XXX% interest, now pay it back" with "you got an education for XXX% interest, now pay it back", that is your argument and that of many who tell me to just pay it back, correct?

Amerigain; a story

Part1: Opening Gambit

A shady group of money lenders in sunny Calimexifornia buys up land on the cheap in an area that is a virtual paradise. The reason this land is so cheap is that no one in their right mind would build on it because this land is located on a known fault line and geologists have determined with 99.99%+ certainty that there will be major seismic activity every 10 years minimum. The statistical likelihood of such activity is reduced as the time range is decreased but still quite significant. Going beyond the 10 years is a moot point since to do so would be statistically insignificant, basically earth shattering events are a sure thing.
   After purchasing said land on the cheap, the shady money lenders spend millions lobbying the local legislator for removal of bankruptcy protections and for more lenient disclosure laws regarding home ownership and the history of properties up for sale. The local politicians, while not the most honest types to begin with, don't at first intend to directly defraud people but are more than happy to get in on the graft. They figure that their constituents know better than to buy a home in such an area so what could possibly go wrong? Someone is offering them a bucket load of money for nothing and they are going to take it! Perhaps some of the more "moral" politicians will give back by donating some of these profits to their favorite charity to appease their conscience.
   The corporations set up by the money lenders then proceeds to build homes of the lowest structural quality imaginable. They know that under ideal conditions these homes would collapse in 20 years at best but they do not care because no one will find out due to the fact that mother nature will dispose of the evidence in 10 years at most. Knowing that none of the locals would ever buy these houses on the fault line, the company focuses its marketing campaign a few states away in an area where people are entirely foreign to the concept of seismic activity. They specifically market their product to first time home buyers and sell it as the Amerigain dream. They advertise convenient easy to make payments over a 30 year time span that, "anyone can make"! Eager young people flood to the properties, they take jobs and build businesses providing a boon to the local economy.


Part2: The trap is sprung

Of course right on schedule mother nature strikes. The money lenders are there, quick to remind their customers of their agreement. It does not matter that the young homeowners are now homeless and without their previous savings which was used for down payments. It does not matter that now these same people must seek shelter elsewhere, spending a large portion of their income renting so they have a roof over their heads. The victims are expected to continue making payments on their "obligations". In their kindness the benevolent money lenders and their shell corporations are quick to offer affordable housing in a nearby low income neighborhood that they had conveniently developed in advance of the major earthquake.
   The local politicians, not to be outdone, seize the opportunity created by the manufactured crises to harness public sympathy towards those "unfortunate victims of natural catastrophe". Loan forgiveness programs are instituted if only those victims are willing to step up to the plate and play ball as government employees. Since everything was entirely "legal" most victims of the scheme decide to comply. Some work three jobs for extended periods, live in the low income housing set up by the money lenders and pay back "their debt". They figure that at least with time they will be free. The problem is that by doing so, these victims create massive financial gains for the very money lenders and their buddy politicians that defrauded them. The crooked elements of society realize that there is massive profit potential and a system of fraud and graft is institutionalized. Talented and smart individuals flock to this system and instead of putting their minds to work thinking up ways to make life better for everyone, they focus their efforts on thinking up ever greater scams.
   Another group that were victims of the earthquake take the politicians offer for loan forgiveness and they become dependent employees of the state. Now the crooked politicians and money lenders have their army to enforce their will. This emboldens them and they push forward with larger and larger scams to ensnare harder to catch prey. Some of these victims may start of as good people, a subjective term no doubt, but eventually the power of their new official roles with eat away at their souls and all but the strongest will succumb to the evil forces at work. Eventually all that remains is a relatively small segment of the population, too smart and or lucky to fall prey to the traps of the worst elements of society. Unfortunately for these stalwarts, at this point it is too late, evil has triumphed and all because good men did nothing.... or has it?

Part3: New Hope

Thankfully for the people of Amerigain there might be hope. Sure in a few locations like Calimexifornia and New Yoke-two-carry things are pretty damn hopeless. The graft is so institutionalized that many play a part in it and don't even realize the nature of what their way of life has become. However, even in such places as these there are a few individuals that represent the third option in our story. These are the earthquake victims that recognize the nature of the beast that confronts them. Despite the fact that many have no financial assets left with which to escape their situation, they recklessly decide not to play ball and do their best to go about finding their way out of the trap they find themselves in.
   Such individuals act in direct opposition of their own immediate interests and make themselves targets in doing so. All of their former friends think that these people are crazy, lazy and stupid. Their Dictatorcrat "friends" tell them that they are indeed victims of evil money lenders and that they should take advantage of the politicians' offer for debt forgiveness and go work for the state. Their Repressifcan "friends" tell them that they are victims of corrupt politicians and should simply work harder and pay "their debt": many of these also offer up the same "solution" of working for the state. Parents, for those fortunate enough to have them, give in to their human desire to keep their children out of harms way and give the poor advice to just give in.
   Almost all people question the integrity of the few choosing the third option, and the individual is left questioning himself. Up for many a sleepless night with not much more to do than read and dream of past or distant places where the illusive concept of freedom did or might exist. Finding work is a challenge at this point as no one trusts someone who refuses to pay their debts. It is "common knowledge" that such a person is vile and lacking in integrity and that all those with the glimmering houses on the water are examples of honesty and integrity who gained their wealth through their merits.
   Such a person as our victim might look around at the people surrounding him and, even if he isn't particularly religious, wonder if he might be a modern day Noah; helpless to stem a coming flood. Absent any friends or family and not wanting to burn bridges with the few remaining people who still seem to care about him; perhaps a fiancée or a mother in law, he would be lonely and seeking out someone to talk to even though he would know that doing so, again, could make him a target.  He might spend much time just walking the streets and being a lurker on internet forums talking to any who will listen with the hope that he is wrong and someone will get it. Unfortunately such a person would not be very likely to exist in a place like New Yoke-two-carry, as another unfortunate byproduct of institutionalized corruption would be a jaded populace who would be more likely to take joy in another's suffering than have any feelings of empathy for the sad state of the victim. Some people might even be malicious in their intent and knowingly give bad advice and liable those who although far off might help the young victim find his way. Desperate at times, the victim might give in to despair and for periods give up. During such times perhaps time and effort would be spent on less productive thoughts and planning such as leaving his homeland or becoming a hermit, this of course would be a disservice to the type of person who already made the commitment to not give in and it would not address the heart of the problem: left unchecked the evil forces pursuing him would likely catch up with him at some point anyhow. But as long as the young victim was still drawing breath there would be hope for him and he would continue to put his neck on the line. As for the future of Amerigain and that of the young rebel the verdict is still out...

.....to be continued.

Offline manfromnevada

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2012, 08:55:06 AM »
Way too long to read . . .
You wanted to go to school, or buy a house. You had no money. You hadn't saved (for whatever reason).
Now you needed someone ELSE's money to do what you wanted.
So you had to BORROW the money that someone else had.
You signed an agreement. A contract. You said you'd pay the money back at a certain interest rate and a certain time frame.
You were an adult. You could read. You could understand.
Nobody forced you. You had free choice.

And now you don't want to pay it back because you claim you were "defrauded".

Remembers, lenders (of education or houses) are not responsible for the outcome of your education any more than they are responsible for the value of your house going up or down. They loan MONEY that you don't have.

This is not rocket science that requires a treatise to explore the intricacies of the banking system. It's about a contract between you and the entity that loaned you money.

Again, PAY IT OFF if it's so onerous. Surely some private entity can make you better terms than the government?

Mac
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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Offline Foundit

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2012, 09:07:28 AM »
Way too long to read . . .
You wanted to go to school, or buy a house. You had no money. You hadn't saved (for whatever reason).
Now you needed someone ELSE's money to do what you wanted.
So you had to BORROW the money that someone else had.
You signed an agreement. A contract. You said you'd pay the money back at a certain interest rate and a certain time frame.
You were an adult. You could read. You could understand.
Nobody forced you. You had free choice.

And now you don't want to pay it back because you claim you were "defrauded".

Remembers, lenders (of education or houses) are not responsible for the outcome of your education any more than they are responsible for the value of your house going up or down. They loan MONEY that you don't have.

This is not rocket science that requires a treatise to explore the intricacies of the banking system. It's about a contract between you and the entity that loaned you money.

Again, PAY IT OFF if it's so onerous. Surely some private entity can make you better terms than the government?

Mac


Mac it isn't that simple or black and white.  It really isn't. 

If we had a free market, I would agree with you.  However, we don't have a free market in the student loan area.  The government took away the ability for people to negotiate when things change in life.  Without the threat of a BK, banks won't work with borrowers.  The government gave banks many incentives to encourage defaults.  The banks now want people to default on student loans.  I was listening to a guy last night that in good faith was paying his loans for many years. He lost his job. The bank would not accept partial payments and forced him into default.  His $80,000 loan ballooned into $750,000 because of fees and penalties on the default. 

If people could simply "pay it off" they would. 

All most of us borrowers would ask is to have our Constitutional rights reinstated. 
"If I cared for my life, I would have lost it long ago, trying to lose it, I find I cannot throw it away." -Bloody Bill Anderson

Offline Old Ironsights

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2012, 09:21:46 AM »
Way too long to read . . .
You wanted to go to school, or buy a house. You had no money. You hadn't saved (for whatever reason).
Now you needed someone ELSE's money to do what you wanted.
So you had to BORROW the money that someone else had.
You signed an agreement. A contract. You said you'd pay the money back at a certain interest rate and a certain time frame.
You were an adult. You could read. You could understand.
Nobody forced you. You had free choice.

And now you don't want to pay it back because you claim you were "defrauded".

You continue to ignore the fact that neither I, nor anyone else said that we don't want to pay it back.  Why?

Quote
Remembers, lenders (of education or houses) are not responsible for the outcome of your education any more than they are responsible for the value of your house going up or down. They loan MONEY that you don't have.

Yes, and in every other case they have to follow certain disclosure & fair lending practice rules.  In the case of Student Loans, they DON'T and they don't disclose that they don't. That IS fraud.

Quote
This is not rocket science that requires a treatise to explore the intricacies of the banking system. It's about a contract between you and the entity that loaned you money.


A contract that did not disclose the penalties and fees associated with the intricacies of said contract.

Quote
Again, PAY IT OFF if it's so onerous. Surely some private entity can make you better terms than the government? Mac

Must be nice to have a magic wand to make money appear.  Must be nice to be so self righteous as to not be willing to either read what we are saying or stoop to admitting that the system has been corrupted by Government influence/influence peddling.

The principal and base interest of the loans are not fraudulent, it is the undisclosed penalties, fees, collection practices and government collusion to remove all consumer protections afforded to every other type of debt - including IRS debt - that is fraudulent.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 09:53:58 AM by Old Ironsights »
Anarchy ungodly? See 1 Sam. 8

The desire to control the life of others is more evil than the desire to simply kill them.
The desire to control the life of others by proxy, through “voting”, is just as evil… but more cowardly.

מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין

Offline Foundit

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2012, 09:34:02 AM »
Way too long to read . . .
You wanted to go to school, or buy a house. You had no money. You hadn't saved (for whatever reason).
Now you needed someone ELSE's money to do what you wanted.
So you had to BORROW the money that someone else had.
You signed an agreement. A contract. You said you'd pay the money back at a certain interest rate and a certain time frame.
You were an adult. You could read. You could understand.
Nobody forced you. You had free choice.

And now you don't want to pay it back because you claim you were "defrauded".

Remembers, lenders (of education or houses) are not responsible for the outcome of your education any more than they are responsible for the value of your house going up or down. They loan MONEY that you don't have.

This is not rocket science that requires a treatise to explore the intricacies of the banking system. It's about a contract between you and the entity that loaned you money.

Again, PAY IT OFF if it's so onerous. Surely some private entity can make you better terms than the government?

Mac


Another problem with the "pay it off" comment is that if you are in default of your student loans, many states now will pull your professional licenses.  So, many lawyers, doctors, CPA's, etc, don't have the ability to "pay it off,"  they no longer have the ability to feed themselves. 

The government is also considering pulling passports and national licensing for defaulted students.  A good example would be for a doctor to lose his DEA license and therefore, would be unable to prescribe medicine.   How do you "pay it off" then?

Again, this is NOT a simple black and white issue. 
"If I cared for my life, I would have lost it long ago, trying to lose it, I find I cannot throw it away." -Bloody Bill Anderson