Author Topic: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match  (Read 32713 times)

Offline jhamilton1769

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2012, 12:25:15 PM »
I get the feeling that Mac has been playing devils advocate a bit. If so it worked. While writting it my post kept changing in subtle ways. I see absolutely no relation between the two examples became I suppose the two are related but... I think the underlying point is that no one is innocent in the tangled web that has become the USA and that if we try to use moral relativity we end up with a unsolvable situation. That being said, maybe something can be done about the specific problem of the de jure monopoly. I ommited a lot of pages in the document I was working on because as I kept rewritting and rereading I noticed myself starting to scapegoat. Please read my next post with a grain of salt. I think there might be some free market solutions hidden in it specifically the parts about how I got to where I am currently.

Offline jhamilton1769

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2012, 12:26:02 PM »
                                                                                                                           The nation benefits

   Acknowledging the student debt problem would be a good thing for the country. It would help restore a free market. Why is our society dumping millions of dollars into higher education when the traditional university has gone the way of the horse and buggy? We have information technology as do our competitors and if this country wishes to compete globally we aught to better utilize it otherwise we are just heathens firing arrows at invading Europeans with guns.
   I have taught myself more using information technology since receiving my degree than I learned in my formal education and that is not because I didn't apply myself in school. I earned a B.S. in business administration with a minor in criminology and law and I graduated with honors so there is no valid argument that the university I attended could make to the end that I did not properly apply myself to their curriculum, not without at least admitting to the diploma factory nature of their institution. All a person has to do is read enough to recognize others intelligence when they see it. Then simply ask such people that are smarter and or more knowledgeable what to read in order to learn more. This also sets the pace for the individual since an individual will not recognize a persons ability if it is to far beyond their own. This is what I have done since getting my official diploma, much thanks to the people of this forum in helping to continue my free education.

Offline jhamilton1769

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2012, 12:45:38 PM »
putting the idea in peoples head, both hiring companies and students, that they no longer need the degree would go a long way to stop the brainwashing. perhaps the bigger benefit would be freeing up so many resources and reducing government dependency. I keep reading about shortages of skilled labor in the news and can't figure out why more companies arn't just dropping the silly artificial degree requirments and offering apprenticeships. Desperate college graduates are getting out these days and doing year long free internships, something I couldn't afford to do. Meanwhile Back when apprenticeships were common the apprentice got their expenses paid in exchange for X yrs free labor then worked X more with a reduced pay before going out to start their own business. There are definitly some serious misallocation of resources in the market today.

Offline Old Ironsights

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2012, 05:15:21 PM »
Yes. I wondered if you would not notice... ;)
Anarchy ungodly? See 1 Sam. 8

The desire to control the life of others is more evil than the desire to simply kill them.
The desire to control the life of others by proxy, through “voting”, is just as evil… but more cowardly.

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Offline manfromnevada

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2012, 09:25:44 AM »
Yes, I've been known to play devil's advocate at times . . .
But seriously, after hearing all the writing here about all the evil things that will happen if you don't pay your student loan, and how people will become "debt slaves" forever, and how bankruptcy is not an option, and how lenders will still come after you, and how even debt "forgiveness" is taxed, my advice, as from the beginning is:

REPAY THE MONEY YOU BORROWED, HONOR THE AGREEMENT YOU SIGNED, and move on with your life.
Debt is bad. It ruins lives. It's not easy to climb out of the hole, but not repaying debts, regardless of the excuse or reason, is wrong (IMNSHO).

Again, I'm not trying to crucify anyone here. I'm not the judge. Just expressing MY opinion and thoughts. A good conversation. JSHamilton posed the question and has gotten some good responses. I've learned a lot actually. I would gladly have him as my neighbor, or my friend, or offer him a beer at the upcoming Jam. Heck, several of my friends are anarchists (not saying that JS is). I don't agree with that position, but they are still my friends. No hard feelings with anyone here, at least not on my part.

Mac
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
<Edmund Burke>

Offline Foundit

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2012, 09:49:49 AM »
Debt is bad. It ruins lives.

I agree. How do you pay back a debt of $750,000 with ever growing penalties and interest making $40,000 a year?  You can't.  So the best option is to work towards restoring the constitution and allowing bankruptcy so those people don't become debt slaves.  Many of us would never would have taken student loans if we had all the information available to us at the time.

"If I cared for my life, I would have lost it long ago, trying to lose it, I find I cannot throw it away." -Bloody Bill Anderson

Offline Paul Bonneau

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2012, 10:13:51 AM »
First, I'm a former liberal. Doesn't mean much around here. Helps if you have turned into an anarchist though.  ;)

Quote
To make a long story short I feel a degree of responsibility unlike the OWS crowd to pay back at the least the principle of what I borrowed

I think responsibility is the wrong word here. Imagine you borrowed money from the Mafia. You might well feel it's a good idea to pay them back, but I bet you wouldn't think of it as "responsibility". Government is just the Mafia writ large.

"Defrauded" might also be the wrong word, too, as Mac points out. You were sold a bill of goods though, in the general sense. Welcome to the club. Yes, the whole thing is one big racket. Anyway, when we owe the Mafia a pile of money, we don't talk of them having "defrauded" us.

Of course we didn't know we were borrowing from the Mafia. The Ministry of Propaganda did not tell us anything about what was going to happen. But we really were borrowing from the Mafia.

If you pay them back, your life will go one way (eating rice and beans to save the money to pay them back). If you don't it will go another way (doing crap jobs, living under the radar, which means you will only be able to afford rice and beans to eat). It looks like you are going to be eating a lot of rice and beans, but don't feel bad because you won't be lonely; the whole frigging country (except ruling class, bankers and enforcers and bureaucrats) are going to be in the same boat pretty soon.

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I just don't see how there can be a reasonable expectation in a society that rule of law will prevail if different segments are held to different standards.

Ah, there is your difficulty. You think there is a "rule of law". Time to wake up and smell the dead fish...

Quote
George Washington always warned about debt since you lose control of your life when you owe money to someone else.

Indeed. And from Shakespeare, "Neither a borrower nor a lender be; For loan oft loses both itself and friend, And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry." Those old guys were pretty smart after all. Of course none of us were raised in this culture of borrowing to believe these things. Now we are paying the price. The old virtues will return, after the revolution has had its say.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 10:26:55 AM by Paul Bonneau »
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Offline MamaLiberty

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #52 on: May 05, 2012, 10:27:37 AM »
And remember what the Mafia does to those who don't pay... Not nice at all.  >:D
It's not that people are dumber, it's that stupidity used to be more painful.

Offline jhamilton1769

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2012, 11:51:11 AM »
First, I'm a former liberal. Doesn't mean much around here. Helps if you have turned into an anarchist though.  ;)

I tend to take my time with forming opinions like that, but I don't limit myself so who knows learning more about anarchists was a start. I didn't know there were different kinds of archists when I started this thread. I would like to visit at some point, probably will be a while though, first things first I have to get out of NYC. NH is closer so I will be heading there for now. It will be good to be able to arm myself and from the statistics I was reading their getting really close to the tipping point in some counties for getting some major legislation passed. Not having to worry about a huge rent bill will definitly go a long way to building up some savings so I can visit Wyoming and check it out. I figure I can do like a infamous character back home did, we called him underground Tom. Very high rent in my hometown but good pay so this guy followed the deer trails to figure out the places least frequented by humans. Then durring the night so no planes could see he dug a huge hole, layered with plastic then some wood for support and built a secret home. He lived there undetected for over a decade, when the police eventually discovered him they guy had it all rigged up hot tub, off the grid electric and all ;D

Offline Cyclonesteve

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2012, 06:01:07 PM »
REPAY THE MONEY YOU BORROWED, HONOR THE AGREEMENT YOU SIGNED, and move on with your life.
Debt is bad. It ruins lives. It's not easy to climb out of the hole, but not repaying debts, regardless of the excuse or reason, is wrong (IMNSHO).
Mac

You sound just like Dave Ramsey.  :D Maybe you should start a radio show!

(I agree completely, taking personal debt is like working with explosives. It may get the job done quicker & easier or it may turn you into pink mist.)
Give them your teeth, not your belly.

Offline RaisedByWolves

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2012, 09:32:38 AM »
There is a great deal of truth on both sides of the argument here. But, ultimately, I too will have to agree with Mac. You were not defrauded. You entered into an agreement, albeit a crappy one in which you are on the losing end. While you are not the victim of fraud, you have, however, been misled. You have been misled by the ideas of society at large concerning education and success. These ideas have already been well dissected above, so I won't rehash them. But now having realized that you were duped - duped but not defrauded - you're understandably hacked off about it. If, as seems to be the case, you feel that it is the entire system in which the student loan process operates that is fraudulent, you cannot hope to find a remedy in accordance with the rules of those who run the game. No one seems to dispute the idea that paying back the money you borrowed is the right thing to do. But being that you possess a useless degree rendering you unable to earn enough income to repay the money you borrowed to obtain said degree, you're in a catch-22. You borrowed money from an entity in order to purchase a worthless commodity, yet it was that same entity which assured you of this commodity's endless value. While technically this doesn't constitute fraud, and is not, therefore, legally wrong, it is, nonetheless, morally reprehensible. The question is now: what are you going to do?

Take your diploma and mail it back to the institution from which you received it. Include a letter explaining that the product did not perform as advertised, and that you are returning it as defective. Make a copy of both these documents and send the copies to whomever collects the payments on your student loan debt. Volunteer to the debt collectors that you relinquish all the monies that you have previously paid them, but that you will not be paying them anything further. What will this accomplish? Most likely they'll just think you're an insane person. But, although you will not be in good standing in the eyes of the system, you will have cleared your conscience and morally righted yourself. Never take on anymore debt. Ever. If you can't afford to buy it outright, you don't need it. Of course it would be wrong for you to then pursue employment under the auspices of your now defunct degree. Get a construction job. Of course you'll be living on the edge of poverty and unable to attain those idealized goals of financial solvency and prosperity. But weren't those the goals instilled in you by the same duplicitous, corrupt system that deceived you into pursuing some useless degree at your own financial peril and that shackled you to some contrived conception success?
Nunya Bidness

Offline Foundit

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #56 on: May 08, 2012, 09:56:30 AM »
REPAY THE MONEY YOU BORROWED, HONOR THE AGREEMENT YOU SIGNED, and move on with your life.
Debt is bad. It ruins lives. It's not easy to climb out of the hole, but not repaying debts, regardless of the excuse or reason, is wrong (IMNSHO).
Mac

You sound just like Dave Ramsey.  :D Maybe you should start a radio show!

(I agree completely, taking personal debt is like working with explosives. It may get the job done quicker & easier or it may turn you into pink mist.)

Dave Ramsey is a shill for bankers. ;P
"If I cared for my life, I would have lost it long ago, trying to lose it, I find I cannot throw it away." -Bloody Bill Anderson

Offline Foundit

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #57 on: May 08, 2012, 09:59:06 AM »
While technically this doesn't constitute fraud, and is not, therefore, legally wrong, it is, nonetheless, morally reprehensible. The question is now: what are you going to do?



What constitutes fraud are the errors and omissions.  The "commodity" was misrepresented AND not all the ramifications were disclosed up front.  That IS fraud.
"If I cared for my life, I would have lost it long ago, trying to lose it, I find I cannot throw it away." -Bloody Bill Anderson

Offline RaisedByWolves

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #58 on: May 08, 2012, 02:48:20 PM »
While technically this doesn't constitute fraud, and is not, therefore, legally wrong, it is, nonetheless, morally reprehensible. The question is now: what are you going to do?



What constitutes fraud are the errors and omissions.  The "commodity" was misrepresented AND not all the ramifications were disclosed up front.  That IS fraud.

I'm not saying that you weren't swindled. I'm just saying that it's not fraud according to them. You have to recognize that they wrote the rules by which you're playing. You can't win.
You borrowed money from the state to get an education administered by the state. And now you want to use the laws created by the state to prove that the state has ripped you off. Good luck with that.
Nunya Bidness

Offline jhamilton1769

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Re: Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match
« Reply #59 on: May 08, 2012, 03:44:36 PM »
I thought this article that just showed up in the WSJ deserved a link on the subject of student debt.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304451104577389750993890854.html?mod=hp_opinion

Basically the article consists of an older American rubbing salt in the wounds of the current class of recent college graduates. His attitude reflects fairly well that of most older Americans and like most he seems convienently oblivious to basic cause and effect relationships. Maybe I should start showing up at some of those occupy wall street rallies after all. I doubt there is much chance in the short run that I could undo the pro state brainwashing, but I bet if a little pressure were applied in the right spots the mood could be shifted from docile sheep like protests to something more greek. >:D