Former liberal wondering if I would be a good FSW match

[Old Ironsights]

While technically this doesn't constitute fraud, and is not, therefore, legally wrong, it is, nonetheless, morally reprehensible. The question is now: what are you going to do?

What constitutes fraud are the errors and omissions.  The "commodity" was misrepresented AND not all the ramifications were disclosed up front.  That IS fraud.

I'm not saying that you weren't swindled. I'm just saying that it's not fraud according to them. You have to recognize that they wrote the rules by which you're playing. You can't win.
You borrowed money from the state to get an education administered by the state. And now you want to use the laws created by the state to prove that the state has ripped you off. Good luck with that.

Except that a bunch of us didn't borrow from the State.  We borrowed from Private Lenders and our note was ACQUIRED by the State Supported NGO called Sallie Mae...

[Cyclonesteve]

I thought this article that just showed up in the WSJ deserved a link on the subject of student debt.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304451104577389750993890854.html?mod=hp_opinion

Basically the article consists of an older American rubbing salt in the wounds of the current class of recent college graduates. His attitude reflects fairly well that of most older Americans and like most he seems convienently oblivious to basic cause and effect relationships. Maybe I should start showing up at some of those occupy wall street rallies after all. I doubt there is much chance in the short run that I could undo the pro state brainwashing, but I bet if a little pressure were applied in the right spots the mood could be shifted from docile sheep like protests to something more greek.

I'm wondering if he will have the same condesending attitude towards seniors when they complain about Social Security benefits being slashed?

[manfromnevada]

I guess I'm still at a loss to understand what you guys are arguing about.
You didn't have the money for your education. So you borrowed it and agreed to pay it back.
Is that right so far?

But now, you don't want to pay it back (for a variety of reasons)? Right?
And you are looking for a loophole or an excuse for not paying it back?
And you are angry that you can't declare bankruptcy and wipe your debt clean?

Is that the crux of it?
I mean, if you don't want to pay off your debt then don't. Fine. But making excuses because one entity transferred the loan to another and now your feet are held to the fire doesn't seem like the honorable thing to. In my opinion.

Again, it appears to be very similar to the underwater homeowners who are DELINQUENT on their loans and are blaming the banks for every little misstep, delay, loss of paperwork, etc when the PRIMARY fault lies with the borrower for NOT PAYING BACK WHAT THEY BORROWED.

That's what it looks like here.

Mac

[Foundit]

I guess I'm still at a loss to understand what you guys are arguing about.
You didn't have the money for your education. So you borrowed it and agreed to pay it back.
Is that right so far?

But now, you don't want to pay it back (for a variety of reasons)? Right?
And you are looking for a loophole or an excuse for not paying it back?
And you are angry that you can't declare bankruptcy and wipe your debt clean?

Is that the crux of it?
I mean, if you don't want to pay off your debt then don't. Fine. But making excuses because one entity transferred the loan to another and now your feet are held to the fire doesn't seem like the honorable thing to. In my opinion.

Again, it appears to be very similar to the underwater homeowners who are DELINQUENT on their loans and are blaming the banks for every little misstep, delay, loss of paperwork, etc when the PRIMARY fault lies with the borrower for NOT PAYING BACK WHAT THEY BORROWED.

That's what it looks like here.

Mac

That's not it at all.  You are missing the point - AGAIN. 

[Old Ironsights]

I guess I'm still at a loss to understand what you guys are arguing about. You didn't have the money for your education. So you borrowed it and agreed to pay it back. Is that right so far?

True.  As is the case for everyone who isn't a Gladiator ("sports hero") or scion of Big Money...

But now, you don't want to pay it back (for a variety of reasons)? Right?

WRONG WRONG WRONG.  The fact that you REFUSE to hear this from us is indicative of your deep seated pro-government bias.

And you are looking for a loophole or an excuse for not paying it back?

NO.  We want to have THE SAME RIGHTS AS EVERY OTHER BORROWER - AS DEFINED IN THE CONSTITUTION.

And you are angry that you can't declare bankruptcy and wipe your debt clean?

NO.

We want the RIGHT - ONE THAT EVEN IRS "DEFAULTERS" HAVE - TO RENEGOTIATE OUR LOANS AND BE PROTECTED FROM OBSCENE/INVASIVE/PREDATORY COLLECTION PRACTICES.

Is that the crux of it?

Only in YOUR mind.

I mean, if you don't want to pay off your debt then don't. Fine. But making excuses because one entity transferred the loan to another and now your feet are held to the fire doesn't seem like the honorable thing to. In my opinion.

Your opinion means squat.  Unless and until you have been subjected to collections practices that are "legal" only to Sallie Mae and the Mob, your opinion means SQUAT.

Again, it appears to be very similar to the underwater homeowners who are DELINQUENT on their loans and are blaming the banks for every little misstep, delay, loss of paperwork, etc when the PRIMARY fault lies with the borrower for NOT PAYING BACK WHAT THEY BORROWED.

Wrong, AGAIN.

Those gits overborrowed so they could have their Bling.  We borrowed because we were told that the only way for us glasses-wearing, skinny non-labor types to succeed in life/be able to earn and PAY OUR WAY was to have a "Degree". 

IT. WAS. A LIE.

THE. TERMS. WERE. NOT. DISCLOSED.

THE. TERMS. WERE. MODIFIED. WITHOUT. OUR. CONSENT.

get it?

That's what it looks like here.

It would look a hell of a lot different if you would open your eyes.

[manfromnevada]

Thank you both for explaining the "obscene/invasive/ predatory collection practices" that folks are subject to as a result of not paying their loans back. Quite clear now what your position is. You've stated "the point" clearer than I ever could. Now I fully understand where you're both coming from.

Mac

[Old Ironsights]

Thank you both for explaining the "obscene/invasive/ predatory collection practices" that folks are subject to as a result of not paying their loans back. Quite clear now what your position is. You've stated "the point" clearer than I ever could. Now I fully understand where you're both coming from.

Mac

We are subject to them WHILE paying our loans back.

We are subject to practices that are ILLEGAL to every other type of collection agency (except the Mafia) and EVERY other kind of debt... even IRS debt.

It would be easier to manage a Million Dollar IRS debt than my $34K Student Loan debt (which I legitimately owe) purchased by Sallie Mae and illegitimately inflated to $50K - even though I've been paying an AM NOT IN DEFAULT.

Would you like to lower your nose and try again?


Or is what's left of your investment portfolio too tied into the "profitability" of increasing the "default rate" of student loans?

The Sallie Mae CEO brags to shareholders in the opening remarks that the company's record earnings that year were attributable to collections on defaulted loans. The company's "fee income" increased by 228% between 2000-2005, while their managed loan portfolio grew by only 87% during the same time period.

What's bad for Students is good for you eh?  Follow the money...

It was reported in January 2004 by John Hechinger (WSJ) that for every dollar paid out in default claims, the Department of Education would recover every dollar in principal, plus almost 20% in interest and fees.  Further, supplemental materials in the president's 2010 budget show a recovery rate for defaulted FFELP loans of about 122 %.  This is the amount recovered compared to the amount of the loan at the time of default.  Compare this recovery rate to that for defaulted credit cards, which is usually about 25 cents on the dollar, and one can see that defaulted loans are clearly not costing the Department of Education money.  In fact, simple, comparative analysis shows clearly that the reverse is indeed the case.  In other words: The Department of Education is making more money on defaulted loans than loans which remain in good stead.

They are MAKING it hard to pay so MORE people can "default".  It is their business model - and is ILLEGAL in every other type of banking transaction..

It is only WILLFUL and MALICIOUS blindness on your part that keeps you from recognizing that all anyone here wants (I won't pretend to speak for anyone else) is our CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARANTEED EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW.

Either remove ALL consumer protections on ALL debts or restore those protections to Student Loan Borrowers.

It's that simple.

[Paul Bonneau]

Yeah Mac, it really does seem to boil down to that question, don't you agree?

I hope we can continue this useful discussion without getting too hot.

One thing though, there never was any guarantee that getting a degree in X would get you a job in X, and in fact it's been the case for a long time that there isn't a very strong connection there, as a moderate amount of research would have disclosed. Many, many people have jobs in different areas than their degree. If I were in this boat I'd abandon any hint there was ever any such guarantee (even if the Universities implied it), and concentrate on the point that student debt ought to be treated no worse than any other debt, particularly in cases where the terms were unilaterally changed by the one side, as appears to be the case.

But this also brings up the deeper question of whether a person can sell himself into slavery. I don't know the answer to that question.

[Old Ironsights]

... If I were in this boat I'd abandon any hint there was ever any such guarantee (even if the Universities implied it), and concentrate on the point that student debt ought to be treated no worse than any other debt, particularly in cases where the terms were unilaterally changed by the one side, as appears to be the case.

My point...

But this also brings up the deeper question of whether a person can sell himself into slavery. I don't know the answer to that question.

If they do so knowingly, with all of the particulars being disclosed... why nt?

It's the nondisclosure of the terms that are/were altered by whim & political chicanery that are the problem - not the debt itself.

[manfromnevada]

OI,
I'll just let you keep rambling here with your insults to me and your baseless accusations.
Where do your warrantless insults against me come from? I thought we were having a friendly discussion, not mud slinging.
Your ranting does more to harm your position than to support it.
I guess the whole world is against you, the banks, the government, the society, your friends, neighbors, and family perhaps? They all conspired to get you into this situation?

Mac

[Old Ironsights]

OI,
I'll just let you keep rambling here with your insults to me and your baseless accusations.
Where do your warrantless insults against me come from? I thought we were having a friendly discussion, not mud slinging.
Your ranting does more to harm your position than to support it.

And yet, YOU are the one who continues to assert that I, and many like me, only want to dump my debt on the taxpayers.

Which is the greater insult?

I guess the whole world is against you, the banks, the government, the society, your friends, neighbors, and family perhaps? They all conspired to get you into this situation?

Mac

They only fostered and perpetuated the .gov developed fallacy that going into debt to get a useless piece of paper is a "good & Necessary Thing".

Overcoming one's upbringing is generally a good thing too, but it usually happens far too late...

[Foundit]

Yeah Mac, it really does seem to boil down to that question, don't you agree?

I hope we can continue this useful discussion without getting too hot.

One thing though, there never was any guarantee that getting a degree in X would get you a job in X, and in fact it's been the case for a long time that there isn't a very strong connection there, as a moderate amount of research would have disclosed. Many, many people have jobs in different areas than their degree. If I were in this boat I'd abandon any hint there was ever any such guarantee (even if the Universities implied it), and concentrate on the point that student debt ought to be treated no worse than any other debt, particularly in cases where the terms were unilaterally changed by the one side, as appears to be the case.

But this also brings up the deeper question of whether a person can sell himself into slavery. I don't know the answer to that question.

However, the kids going through the "system" are bombarded from elementary school on with propaganda to the opposite.

[rhodges]

One thing though, there never was any guarantee that getting a degree in X would get you a job in X, and in fact it's been the case for a long time that there isn't a very strong connection there, as a moderate amount of research would have disclosed.

However, the kids going through the "system" are bombarded from elementary school on with propaganda to the opposite.

That is why the kids need to learn to be discerning adults, and not believe all those lies. (I hope I quoted the part you were responding to...)

We are surrounded by liars, from salesmen, to stockbrokers, to senators. Separate the lies from the truth, or risk losing big time. I don't like it, but this is the way our world is.

[Foundit]

One thing though, there never was any guarantee that getting a degree in X would get you a job in X, and in fact it's been the case for a long time that there isn't a very strong connection there, as a moderate amount of research would have disclosed.

However, the kids going through the "system" are bombarded from elementary school on with propaganda to the opposite.

That is why the kids need to learn to be discerning adults, and not believe all those lies. (I hope I quoted the part you were responding to...)

We are surrounded by liars, from salesmen, to stockbrokers, to senators. Separate the lies from the truth, or risk losing big time. I don't like it, but this is the way our world is.

My family also still buys into and defends this lying system.  I think the worst think about the education system is that it doesn't teach and/or kills critical thinking.

[kingskid]

Okay, having been the recipient of a student loan for my undergrad degree, guess I can jump in here.  First of all, I agree with Mac (even if he won't kiss my dog !) and Paul and any others who are taking the contrarian view, it seems.  Bottomline for me:  you borrowed the money, signed a contract to repay, so regardless of anything else, you have an honor to uphold your end of the deal, regardless of the lack of integrity by the other party.  Yes, the gov't is scandalous, corrupt, illegal, and everything else we want to throw at it.   However, you may not have known that at the time, but that does not excuse you from repaying the debt.  For a person of integrity, it matters not the scruples of an opposing party.  Damn the torpedoes, pay what you said you'd pay and DON'T EVER DO IT AGAIN!   Actually, the Bible says to not be a borrower because the borrower then becomes a slave of the lender.  And a lender could be screwed by a borrower.  Best to avoid both.  But if the deed is done, do what you said you'd do.  Your word is you.

I really like that FSWers hold to some standards that are particularly very, very important in my own life.  Doing what you said you'd do is one of them.  That's applicable to your situation, former liberal, but all we can do is share our personal feelings, which you asked for.  The doing of one thing or another is up to you.  But look at it this way, if a person owes taxes (yes, we know that system is bondage and corruption, but it is what we live with) and doesn't pay them, he will live with a certain amount of fear and trepidation, waiting for the knock on the door.  Why give something like a student loan power over you?  The only way to destroy that power is to pay the debt and thus cancel the obligation forever.  Now, that is freedom, my friend!  God bless you and pray about it. 

Kingskid